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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 8:39:14 GMT
Out of boredom this morning, I've been looking around at various pics and pages of information about snails. I've been trying to find out a little information about the caracolus marginella I keep, which I originally received from AlienSnail. I know a few others of you keep them too. However, looking at information and photos today, I'm starting to doubt that these snails are in fact caracolus marginella and may be a Pleurodonte species of some kind. For example, look at these photos on Flickr of a caracolus marginella in Puerto Rico: www.flickr.com/photos/rpilla001/3743645612/www.flickr.com/photos/rpilla001/3743644986/And these: www.jaxshells.org/gallery4.htmThey look rather different to the snails we keep, don't they? I know that ours are apparently collected from Barbados, so they could have different shell colour and possibly pattern, but I can't see their shells looking so very different to the snails in these pictures - these snails seem to have much more "pointed" shells on top like pleurodonte marginella do. The snails that we keep that we know as C. marginella are far flatter, like little buttons. Have a look at these photos of some pleurodonte species: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Pleurodontidaewww.kingsnake.com/westindian/pleurodonteexcellens1.JPGwww.schnecken-der-welt.de/pleurodonte.htmAlso, see this German snail forum, where something that looks very much like our c. marginella is described as "Pleurodonte spec. Barbados": www.schnecken-forum.de/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=8792I don't speak any German - does anyone know if there's any relevant info on the page? What do you guys think? Is it possible that our snails have been misidentified all this time? AlienSnail, where did you get the snails from originally and were you told they were Caracolus marginella? Maybe Kevin or Ade or someone else with expert contacts could look into this, or am I just talking a load of rubbish? ;D |
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Post by stixandsnailsyork on May 6, 2010 9:42:50 GMT
Hi Choco, Are these the same as i have had from you? I haven't received them as of yet but if they are the same as i have bought i will take some pics and send them to a friend of mine to see what he thinks he identifies all snail that i buy for me.
will let you know what he comes back with if they are the same ones.
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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 10:32:06 GMT
Hi Choco, Are these the same as i have had from you? I haven't received them as of yet but if they are the same as i have bought i will take some pics and send them to a friend of mine to see what he thinks he identifies all snail that i buy for me. will let you know what he comes back with if they are the same ones. Yes, these are the little guys I've sent to you!  Mine were originally from AlienSnail and have bred. They seem to be commonly called caracolus marginella here, but I wonder if that's just as a result of one person originally misidentifying them? |
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Post by vandamay on May 6, 2010 10:38:31 GMT
I like the tree snail very nice, and the others i think you are right not quite the same as the ones i have thats for sure more pointed as you say !
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Post by stixandsnailsyork on May 6, 2010 11:38:55 GMT
I have just looked at the pics i would say they are more like the Pleurodontidae I will put pics on the pc later and see what my friend thinks. Will let you know.
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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 11:51:38 GMT
I've taken a load of photos of several of my snails, including different shades and tone of shell, plus a couple of young snails, from lots of different angles to try and enable identification. There's a lot of pics so I put them in a zip file which can be downloaded here, for anyone interested: www.sendspace.com/file/jnn4f4 |
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Post by muddydragon on May 6, 2010 14:25:03 GMT
fascinating. Mine are from alien aswell bar 2 from ebay with aload of others in which they were described as 'like cheat three toothed' or something along those lines. but they obviously aren't (from the 1 picture i can get by googling that)
could do with getting into the NHM vaults to find specimens of C. marginella (oh wouldn't that be amazing)
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Post by rpilla001 on May 6, 2010 15:15:27 GMT
Hello everyone and thank you to Choco for linking to my Flickr account. Choco, from your OP, "caracolus marginella in Puerto Rico:" Just to be clear the snails are native to Puerto Rico but I photographed them in Miami, Florida. They are considered a non-invasive species at this time since they do not compete with local snails food sources. These snails are without a doubt Caracolus marginella. I have documentation from 3 different experts on this species as well as documentation when they were introduced into this country and where they originated. Unfortunately in the shell collecting societies some people create new species when they find variations in shell patterns or configurations. indeed these are not species but just variations within a species. A comparison would be to say that people from China are a different species than people from Europe because their bodies have a different shape and their skin color is different. The Liguus fasciatus (Florida tree snail) is a prime example of this over enthusiastic snail collecting fever. These snails have been set into as little as seven subspecies and as many as 70 subspecies in order to create a valued market for collectors. The reality is there is one species with some very prominent & definable color variations but there are also many more which fit in between. As for the German site, you can translate it farely well here: translate.google.com/#Just copy and paste the web address. The debate the German forum is making here: schnecken-forum.de/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11034Is whether or not these two "species" of snails are indeed the same one species. Currently they are still considered separate species. However, continued research, when it happens, may change this. |
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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 15:26:58 GMT
Hello everyone and thank you to Choco for linking to my Flickr account. Hiya rpilla, thanks a lot for dropping by to give us a hand! I had a great time looking at all your wildlife photos earlier Choco, from your OP, "caracolus marginella in Puerto Rico:" Just to be clear the snails are native to Puerto Rico but I photographed them in Miami, Florida. They are considered a non-invasive species at this time since they do not compete with local snails food sources. I stand corrected These snails are without a doubt Caracolus marginella. I have documentation from 3 different experts on this species as well as documentation when they were introduced into this country and where they originated. Excellent. That makes things a little more definite for the moment, anyway. I guess the issue now is whether our snails look enough like the snails you photographed to be called Caracolus marginella! Unfortunately in the shell collecting societies some people create new species when they find variations in shell patterns or configurations. indeed these are not species but just variations within a species. A comparison would be to say that people from China are a different species than people from Europe because their bodies have a different shape and their skin color is different. It's entirely possible that our snails are indeed C. marginella with different colouration and shell patterning, but after having a really good examination of my snails earlier, I just don't think (personally) that they look enough like the snails in your photos and the other photos I've seen for the moment. It's the shape of the shell more than the colour and tone etc. as your C. marginella photos just seem to have too "pyramid"ish a shell like a Pleurodonte marginella. The snails I have have a flatter shell on top. I've uploaded a .zip file of the photos I took of them earlier in the thread if you'd like to have a look? If you know anyone who might be able to assist in identifying the snails, please feel free to pass the photos on Roughly how big would you say the C. marginella are in person? Thanks again for your help!  |
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Post by rpilla001 on May 6, 2010 18:13:09 GMT
The shells I have collected are on average 1 1/2 inches across and 3/4" inches in height. I looked at your photos and compared them with the collected specimens I have and there is significant variation in. Enough so that I would say they are not caracolus marginella. However, I am not an expert. Look at this guys stuff here: www.jaxshells.org/gallery4.htmYou can also contact this guy on Flickr. He is a super snail authority: John Slapcinsky www.flickr.com/people/30197742@N07/Finally there is another guy I work with who is also a Southern Snail expert. Harry G. Lee, M. D. shells@hglee.com |
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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 21:34:25 GMT
The shells I have collected are on average 1 1/2 inches across and 3/4" inches in height. I looked at your photos and compared them with the collected specimens I have and there is significant variation in. Enough so that I would say they are not caracolus marginella. However, I am not an expert. Look at this guys stuff here: www.jaxshells.org/gallery4.htmYou can also contact this guy on Flickr. He is a super snail authority: John Slapcinsky www.flickr.com/people/30197742@N07/Finally there is another guy I work with who is also a Southern Snail expert. Harry G. Lee, M. D. shells@hglee.com Thanks so much for your help I've dropped John Slapcinsky a line. Hopefully he'll be able to help us out! Looking around a little, I think there's a possibility our snails are Pleurodonte isabella. Apparently they are present in Barbados (and Jamaica), and they look awfully similar to our snails:   Anyone have any thoughts on this? Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be too much information about Pleurodonte isabella online... |
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Post by choco on May 6, 2010 22:50:44 GMT
John Slapcinsky has got back to me remarkably quickly, and has confirmed that he believes our snails to be Pleurodonte Isabella... From his email: "I think you are right. Those are not Caracolus and are Pleurodonte. They look like P. isabella, the only species on Barbados as far as I know." So looks like we have a mystery cleared up... I guess we need to update the lists of snails in captivity in the UK! |
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Post by rpilla001 on May 7, 2010 4:15:26 GMT
No worries. Keep John's contact info handy. He is tha man to go to about snails. His Flickr account is a wealth of information.
I am surprised the UK does not have tighter restrictions on snail and slug imports. Some of them like the African Land Snail can really mess things up.
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Post by AlienSnail on May 7, 2010 15:09:09 GMT
:DWow this is very interesting, I have been missing some news due to didgy internet! Well thank you very much indeed for joining rpilla001 and helping out. Thank you too Choco. Yes indeed I'll have to update the list Thank you once again. |
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Post by stixandsnailsyork on May 8, 2010 21:42:56 GMT
Hi choco have heard back from my friend he also thinks they are infact P. Isabella. |
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Mine were originally from AlienSnail and have bred. They seem to be commonly called caracolus marginella here, but I wonder if that's just as a result of one person originally misidentifying them? 
