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Post by katie on Jun 20, 2010 12:22:56 GMT
Soo, i was reading through some of the older posts in the Breeding section over on PetSnails from, like, years ago, and came across one about the inbreeding of Fulica, which i found pretty interesting.
It was mostly about inbreeding being the reason why Fulica sizes are shrinking, (i didn't know they were, but apparently they are). Soo, i'm surious now, because someone had said that Fulica used to reach sizes of about 17cm?
Exactly how big did they used to grow? And in the wild, seeing as theres much less chance of inbreeding etc, do they still get this big?
Katie x
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Post by crossless on Jun 20, 2010 18:36:07 GMT
Yes, if theres too much inbreed lifespan is shorter, size will get smaller, illness is more common etc. I have heard and read that usually in captivity a.fulica could grow about maximum 15cm and in wild something like 18cm etc. Usually a. fulicas most common size is just about 5 to 12cm and in Finland bigger ones are really really rare. I have read too that creatures like snails inbreed starts to show some sings after many many generation was it about 100 or something? I think it would be wise if had chance use snails from different family to breeding for time to time so everyone would not be like so that relatives make babies, someone sends them new homes in couples and when those to from same litter make babies new owner sells babies and new owner let them breed again etc.. Atleast in Finland we try to use only biggest ones, so size would somehow keep going to next generations if not used the smallest ones..? I have too huge fulicas and I'm planning to make some day few litters with them so atleast we would hopefully get that big sized genes to go next generation. Even I don't know anything about their past.. I heard that a. fulica white jade is maximum 8cm in shell lenght because in europe was only like few couples of them and every white jade would be from same family? I read from petsnails too that some keeper never have had any a.fulica lived longer than just 4years.
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Post by Alisha on Jun 20, 2010 19:06:34 GMT
Jadatzi's have been involved in a huge mass inbreeding in China, due to the food industry > They are usually smaller, and don't tend to live very long, but tbh, most Fulicas are related. You'd be hard pushed to find one in captivity that isn't related. Maybe only distantly, but that's why I think people should stop breeding them, if there's a possible chance they wont get a very good quality of life, then why would you do it? It's cruelness IMO
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Post by AlienSnail on Jun 22, 2010 6:43:55 GMT
All known Jades come from one batch bought from Japan, which were being bred for the food industry. Jadatzis are the result of breeding a Jade with a rodatzi (both variaties of Achatina fulica), and the offspring bred again to produce four colour variations. They are all known as Jadatzi but the term often refers to the albinos with rodatzi shells.
The inbreeding issue is a complicated one. It's an interesting topic and one that's been debated quite a few times.
no-one knows for definate.
Basically the logical reasoning is that greater genetic variety would equal healthier babies, as with most of the animal kingdom. A recent study on a type of sea snail suggests the opposite in the wild, and that it's the fact that snail populations in the wild are very often very inter related (because they don't tend to travel very far) that helps them to develop quirks that help them evolve to suit their neighbourhood, and that bringing in outsiders can actually dilute the benefit that they've bred into themselves through in-breeding.
This makes sense and has been shown as probable in that sea snail, therefore it could makes sense to all snails.
However there's the problem of fulica. They've been known to start off large and get smaller with each generation. not always the case, but it's been noted on several forums. Then there's the weak jades, every jade known in captivity all across the globe are believed to have originated from a batch bred for food in Japan, which someone bought and bred for the pet trade. They are known by many of us in several forums to be prone to weakness, stuntedness, shell problems and early death. This has been put down to inbreeding. However, not every Jade is weak and stunted, just a very large proportion of them.
However other people believe it's not the inbreeding, but the fact that some people have let the weak ones breed and bad genetics have got into the general gene pool and are now rife and hard to avoid.
To complicate things further it is also known that certain species do not grow as large in captivity as they would in the wild. Tiger snails are an example of that. Could it be the same for normal shelled fulica too? Is that why subsequent generations got progressively smaller (in general)?
So there we have it. No one knows for sure, it's all speculation.
My Isabellas, to be honest, are getting a bit inbred now, but are very healthy with no sign of problems at all, no shorter life-span, no shell problems, no smaller growth, nothing at all. Some species appear to be fine no matter how many generations they are inbred. Perhaps as the study shows it MAY be of some benefit even for some species? Or maybe not?
It's a mine-field of different opinions and no-one really knows who is right. With fulica though I'd be tempted not to inbreed them for many generations. I'm currently trying another jadatzi project with two large unrelated snails, a large and strong jadatzi jade and a large rodatzi..
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Post by crossless on Jun 22, 2010 14:52:15 GMT
Many keepers for some reason can't keep jades alive and small amount of keepers aren't lucky with normal fulicas neither. Then here is quite lot illnesses and when I asked help to my snails eyestalks that are full of dots. Only one who answered on bugnation just told he/she snails never got ill "perfect pest gets never ill it's so rare" and here in Finland they are not so perfect after all when theres sometimes really much illnesses..
I have heard that other animals that are albinos they are much weaker to illnesses etc.
Here in my country is really hard to find snails that are not related to each other. Some keeper thinks at least don't breed nearer family that cousins or something.
Some species inbreed is hard thing to control when they grow big commune and everyone looks the same. I heard that too that examle E.Rose just copies itself once year and lay eggs..
Then some people say that food make big difference in growing than someone just said you can grow huge snails just with cucumber/salad/tomato diet, just too hard me to believe that.
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Post by Alisha on Jun 22, 2010 16:51:01 GMT
I would of thought that such an un-varied diet as that would of made them smaller or at least live a shorter life, varied diet is very important. In Tigers heat apparently comes in to it, so maybe that could also be a significant factor in the growth of snails?
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Post by crossless on Jun 22, 2010 19:24:14 GMT
I have heard that if temp is not ideal snails might grow slower. So I have kept my baby snails (a. achatina) at least in ideal temp so it won't affect too much in growth. Cold-blooded animals need heat to function so I think it's not true false that information neither.
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Post by katie on Jun 27, 2010 11:17:45 GMT
So, has anyone tried bringing in Wild Fulica to freshen up the gene pool, or would that not work too well? x
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Post by Alisha on Jun 27, 2010 13:40:26 GMT
They're trying, I know Kevin speculated about a breeding program for all his snails, and creating a family tree ect. to help avoid weak genes. But I believe it tends to be a bit of both, weak gened snails left to breed, and in-breeding.
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Post by katie on Jun 27, 2010 15:20:01 GMT
Is their no way to tell which Snails are the weak gened ones? Say, for example, a Fulica only managed to reach about 6 cm, whereas they are supposed to get up to around 11 in captivity. Would that be inbred or weak gened?
Thanks x
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Post by Alisha on Jun 27, 2010 17:45:23 GMT
Both IMO.
And yes, for someone who knows their snails, it's a simple task. However IMHO, it's mostly people who know squat about snails, who think they can breed them and sell them for money, or have no idea what they're doing and let them breed out of control, that created this problem in the first place.
There's one thing I know. Mine are inbred and might not get to the size they should, but I'm going to give them a loving home no matter what. One day I might get some wild caught ones and try to breed them, and see what I can get going, but I wont bank on it being a success because tbh, there's so many irresponsiable owners that we'll never be short of Fulicas.
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Post by katie on Jun 27, 2010 17:59:58 GMT
Hmm. they should make a ban on breeding Fulic, unless you have like a special permit or something. That wopuld surely straigten things out? Then again, theirs also the problem that its soo easy to miss a couple of eggs, and then wake up suddenly to find yourself overrun with snail babies
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Post by crossless on Jun 27, 2010 18:55:03 GMT
^ Why permit? How people should see who has snails with permit and how you mark snails that have been registered.. I think people have more terrarium animals than dogs etc and they don't have any official breeding programs like dogs.. Too complicated thing I think.
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Post by katie on Jun 27, 2010 19:06:08 GMT
Hmm, i dunno really. Sort of like, in USA, don't you have to have a permit to actualy own snails? Like that, only, not to own them, just a permit to be allowed to breed Fulica? I dont know how it works tbh though .. :/
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Post by crossless on Jun 28, 2010 0:03:53 GMT
No invertebrate need in my country any permits no one keep neither any file how much there is them etc. Reptiles need cities or something..
Permits at last in here would be hard to monitor.. Here you can get really easy cats and dogs without any papers etc..
In my country is illegal set free animals to wild if they aren't native. So it's too illegal to set free native species where they don't live in nature. Every species can't live everywhere it depends of city which species live where.
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